John Brozak on Zikr

John Brozak explains what is meant by “Zikr”. This is a fundamental mystical practice of the Sufis, outwardly seen as chanting the name of Allah. He discusses the relationship of chanting, intention, prayer, and remembrance of God.

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Jody Renee Sillence: Forgiveness

Jody Sillence continues her conversation with Carol Sill on the power and beauty of forgiveness in the path of awakening. If you have ever experienced the deep healing feelings of forgiveness then ….

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Retrieving the Ancient

“We, the artists, have to appreciate that our materials already come with their own languages embedded inside of them. So our materials are already expressing themselves. So the artist interfaces with the being of the material.”

Retrieving the Ancient – James talks to Carol Sill about art.

C: Hi James. We’re sitting up here on the roof, and last night you gave your talk, an artist talk called “Is there Anything Old Here?” and just now you were mentioning that we have to retrieve the ancient. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?

J: What I said was: we have to put the brakes on and retrieve the ancient before we go forward.

C: What do you mean “we”? Who is doing this?

J: In culture. There’s a lot of energy in the direction of the new, and I’m kind of tired of it. What I want to do is make the old new, rather than make the new new.

C: And you do that in your painting work….

J: Yeah, I think there are aspects in my work that go backward rather than forward. Some observers of my work think that that’s not worthwhile but they’re just looking for the new – period. There’s so much more to perceive than the new.

C: So how do you perceive the ancient?

J: Well, you have to do your research. That’s a really good question. Where do we find the ancient? I guess one answer would be in the aspects of life that never change. Such as, the boring, banal and simple. The boring, banal and simple, I bet, is the same across time. And the thing is, that’s where the metaphysical truths are hiding in plain sight. That’s also the message of Pop Art. The Warhol soup cans, the Screen Tests that he did; there are some good lessons in Pop Art for all of us.

… is wrapped up in learning of language. I think there are only two languages to learn. One is the language of awakening, and the other is the language of materiality which artists know very well.
So on one hand we’ve got spiritual people, working hard, there. And on the other hand we’ve got cultural workers who are working hard where they are. It’s rare that those two worlds come together, and they need to come together.

C: What is the artist’s path? What is that?

J: What do I think the artist’s role is?

C: The artist’s path.

J: From what perspective?

C: Well, let’s say you were an artist and you wanted to take that way as a way of self-development and as a way of understanding the universe. What would that way be? How would you go there?

J: We have to - we: the artists, have to appreciate that our materials already come with their own languages embedded inside of them. So our materials are already expressing themselves. So the artist interfaces with the being of the material. That’s number one.

C: And things are discovered through that?

J: Well then the play begins, because you’re in play with the invisible, in a sense.

C: Would you say it’s kind of like alchemy?

J: I think so, yes. How is it that our materials, plywood, stone, canvas, paint, whatever, how is it that these materials can be as alive before we even touch them, as we are ourselves?
So when you’re making art, you’re not in it alone. The cosmos wants to play.

C: When you say you’re not really alone, are you talking about guiding spirits, that kind of thing?

J: Of course. It’s a good idea to give these guiding spirits form, and to acknowledge that that’s what you’re doing when you’re making art. In the end, you’ve given guiding spirits form. And you’ve collaborated. And they’ve chosen you, in that moment.

C: Is this like the muse, or is it past the idea of the muse?

J: It’s probably past the idea of the muse, but “the muse” will do.

C: Now some people say that everybody’s creative, and everyone has a creative ability somehow, in their life or in their work. What do you think about that?

J: Usually those statements are uninformed and misguided because on the one hand we are all striving to be artists, either in this life or the next or the one after that. At some point …

C: So you believe in the supremacy of “Art” with a capital A?

J: I believe in the supremacy of the creative process. But not everybody’s an artist – there’s no way. Let’s see your art, if you call yourself an artist. Where’s your art?

C: Can people use art as a way of awakening?

J: Well that’s what has to happen. That’s what it’s for.

C: There is some art that doesn’t seem to be referencing anything to do with awakening…

J: That’s because that art isn’t about anything. I don’t know what other reason to make art for other than to give form to the… what did you call them? Guiding spirits. If your creativity doesn’t do that, then what are you doing?

C: What would you say to somebody who is an artist but feels they’re in a bit of a box, they can’t find their way, you know, they’re caught somewhere. What kind of advice would you give somebody?

J: Where are they caught?

C: Well, maybe in themselves or in some idea of what art is or should be.

J: What would I say? …I guess try it on. If anybody wants to try on the idea that everything is will, then give it a try. I don’t think you will succeed very long. In other words, what gives our creativity its longevity? Only that depth of the infinite. If your work doesn’t have that depth then it has no longevity, and it can only have that depth if it’s in collaboration with the infinite.

C: And how do people find their way to do that?

J: Well, that’s what we’re all up against. If you’re an artist or even not an artist, we’re all looking for truth. And truth exists. And there are strategies and methods already expressed, there are clues everywhere. Artists are doing that. Read Marshall McLuhan: it’s all there. McLuhan understood the patterns of how to get there.

C: So how does being an artist change your perception of the world?

J: Well, I don’t know. I’m not sure how to answer that. How do artists see differently from non-artists?
If I’m finding answers in the boring, banal and simple, I know there aren’t very many other people doing that. That’s perception.

C: When you were talking last night, I think you were trying to help people learn to see. And that’s really difficult, to understand that language of art if you’re not an artist yourself. Is there any way that… I mean, what do you suggest to help people learn to see? To see what art is doing, or what art means.

J: I would say if you’re serious about perceiving then you’ll find the way. You just have to be serious about it. And you have to not be afraid to look bad. And not be afraid to isolate yourself as a result.

Somewhere… I read somewhere in a book about Judaism a quote from what I think was the Bible, that said: God says, “Make me known to you.” And that’s what the artist engages in. Should be, anyway. Make God known to you. Make truth known to you. Find it. Try it on. Hunt it down. Name it.

View the video of this conversation.

Retrieving the Ancient, and The Language of Art

James K-M talks with Carol Sill about art and retrieving the ancient.

“We, the artists, have to appreciate that our materials already come with their own languages embedded inside of them. So our materials are already expressing themselves. So the artist interfaces with the being of the material.”

* On the roofdeck, background sound is of the busy street below.
Link here for the text version of this conversation.

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Spirit and Social Action: Nancy Zimmerman

“A real sense that every human being is made, is valued and  treasured by God, whether or not they believe in God, or believe in a different God, every human being is absolutely priceless. And yes we are our brother’s and sister’s  keeper, and we do need to be accountable for the fact that we are living in these neighborhoods and find ways to do what we can to come alongside people who are struggling.”

Nancy Zimmerman and Carol Sill, in conversation

C: This is Carol Sill talking with Nancy Zimmerman here in Vancouver. Nancy is a money coach and she works in the financial sector, and she’s also someone who has a very deep spiritual life. That’s one reason why I wanted to talk to you, Nancy, to get more of an idea of the approach that you’re involved with. Do you want to say a few words just to get us started?

N: Well sure. As you said, Hi, I’m Nancy. I attend an Anglican parish in the Downtown East Side, which is known in Canada, anyways, as a very complex neighborhood and one of the poorest postal codes. I attend St. James Anglican church. It’s what’s called a “high church”, which means within the spectrum of what it means to be Anglican it has a different ethos and a slightly differently nuanced set of beliefs than other Anglican parishes may hold.

C: How would you define that difference – what is the nuance that you’re talking about?

N: Well, first just to clarify, I’m not a theologian, I’m not speaking at all officially on behalf of the church, but rather as a parishioner who’s attended there for seven years. So, there’s a number of things. There’s the outward experience, which tends to be very senses oriented. High church tends to have … the priest will wear robes,  use of incense,  use of music – typically classical music. And some of the liturgies and rituals are observed with a lot greater intentionality than they might be at what is called a low church. Another distinguishing feature which is more Catholic is that we have a slightly different interpretation of what it means to receive communions.  As opposed to believing it to be simply symbolic, we actually believe that Christ’s real presence is in the wine and in the bread.

C: So it’s a deep sacrament.

N: Very much. It’s very sacramental.

C: And what is the other aspect of this church? Can you describe a little more about some of the community aspect of it?

N: So typically, also, Anglo-Catholics are situated in geographies that are connected to poverty , connected to struggle, and very much an element of social gospel.
What that really works out as is a real sense that every human being is made, is valued and  treasured by God, whether or not they believe in God, or believe in a different God, every human being is absolutely priceless. And yes we are our brother’s and sister’s  keeper, and we do need to be accountable for the fact that we are living in these neighborhoods and find ways to do what we can to come alongside people who are struggling. And that’s very much a part of, not just the ethos, but the expectation.

C: And so this has transformed your life, hasn’t it?

N: That, combined with living here. Yeah, both of them together have really worked together in a wonderful way. It’s been incredibly transformative. Having gone from, dare I say it, LuluLemony Kits-oriented to “oh my gosh, we can create a better society than this, and I want to do what I can in my own ways. “ That’s not easy to navigate, not easy to figure out, but very much a sense of spiritual impetus and blended in with what it is to be human, and me, now. Part of what it means to be human is to care for my neighbor.

C: How do you reconcile this, or integrate this with your work in the financial sector?

N: I have two jobs. One is my own business where I work as a money coach, and increasingly part of what I hope happens (and I’m not here to lay my beliefs on anybody else)  - but what I hope happens is as people learn to be thoughtful in how they handle their money, be it their debt, their spending, their savings, my hope is that they also start to become very intentional about money. And also see it as an opportunity not simply to have money that they own, but rather regard it as a type of stewardship. And many clients do. Many clients come to me because they’ve figured this out about me. My hope is that they in turn will be able to give more freely to others as well. And that’s one of the themes in money management.
I also work with a major financial institution. Fortunately it’s a financial institution that gives back very explicitly to the community so I am very comfortable there.

C: And so this approach, this way of viewing being a human being in relation to your spiritual life, in relation to God – can you tell me a little bit more about how you sense that in the years to come? How you would like people to begin to open up to these things.

N: Speaking personally, I think this is something that evolves within each of us. One of the tenets of the Anglo-Catholic is that we believe that Christ is in everyone, and when we meet somebody we are basically meeting Christ. Even if they don’t smell good, even if they’re living outside, even if they’re not dressed the way we find comfortable. So what our pleasure is, and what relates to us is to meet that person and somehow discover the Christ in him.  And connect, both of us, in a way, internal Christ to internal Christ and then let that relationship build.  I’m not good at this, Carol. I’m just barely starting to grasp on these ideas and trying to find my way to bring them out, and that’s not an easy question. And all I can do then is …on spirituality and hope for God’s grace to enable me to do it more the way God would want me to do it, over the coming years.  And if in the process also there’s ways to introduce people to this idea, then I would say that’s a welcome opportunity as well.

C: So it requires personal transformation in order to truly enable this ideal to happen. A lot of personal challenges you have to face within yourself in order to be able to see that Christ in one another.

N: Absolutely. And one thing that I sense too, is when you hold out an ideal like that, you simply don’t live up to it. And when you tell people you hold an ideal like that, and they see you don’t live up to it, that’s embarrassing and that’s hard. You feel like a hypocrite. You don’t mean to be a hypocrite. It’s a very countercultural ideal. It takes incredible work and conscientiousness to be undoing a lot of how our world is set up, which is to favor and to value those who have outward signs of  what we consider valuable. People having money, people looking successful, people looking beautiful, and it’s just completely counter to that. So undoing that on the one hand and trying to move towards deeply appreciating every human being regardless if they’re dressed in Prada or if they’re dressed in grubby jeans. It’s a hard task.

C: Could you describe a little bit what this neighborhood you’re talking about is like? The nitty gritty realities.

N: Sure. It’s a real confluence. There are lots of people outside who are addicted. A lot of people outside who have mental illness. And then there’s other people who are like myself – typical middle-class Canadians. I happen to own a place, lots of other people who are in a similar socio-economic.. There’s a lot of tourists that come to the area, a lot of businesses. And it remains to be seen how business will choose, or not, in aggregate to respond to the community that they are part of. If they will choose to sort of enforce through security systems, security measures, their view of how the world should be, which is again favoring the people with money, the people who look good; or if the business community will choose to really respect and acknowledge that really everybody is not so lucky, and how can they actually be a life-giving presence in this mixed up community. Rather than enforcing a certain look and feel to the community, so to speak.

C: You know it makes me think there is a kind of permeability. The idea that there is a permeable social environment rather than walled environments. Just like permeable individuals, where more light can pass through, as opposed to walled individuals, where it’s just like simply different fortesses barreling through life.

N: And it’s really hard. You know when I walk down to the little park at the end of my street and see that someone has used it for their bathroom, my initial response years ago was contempt and disgust. Now, I’m still grossed out but now I think, wow,  how is it that we can’t even provide basic sanitation services in our city for people who don’t have a home.  So you get confronted by things that aren’t easy. And you have a choice. I am constantly going back and forth between putting a wall up and trying to sort of lower my own personal wall. What if I do when every other day just the walk home from work, 15 minutes and I have 5, 10 people asking me for my spare change. Sometimes, Carol, I get pissed off. “Leave me alone! The last guy got my money!” And then other days when I think I’m in my higher self mode, I’m not kidding on this, I feel so privileged and honored to be able to take somebody to the grocery store and, Yeah, we’ll get you some milk and cereal. And this is sincere, I want to say thank you to that person for letting me buy food for them….

C: And so always being in touch with your own humanity with the variables within yourself as well, and just accepting that  - just the same as you accept that there are people who are lost and need help. I’m just thinking this now. So in a way the aspect of you that is saying you are just pissed off , leave me alone, it gives an opportunity to your higher self to be able to help you. You know what I mean? As a nested metaphor of the holograms of interactivity that we engage in.

N: And then the other aspect that I struggle with, sometimes I’ll be pissed off at people asking me for change, and then  the other thing that I’m increasingly having to grapple with is that not being ….my society. … and I lose sleep and I get tense and I just think: how is it possible that we’re okay with this? How is it possible that in a place where we’re so careful or we at least explicitly are so careful about how we talk about other people, how is it possible that on forums and so on, it’s okay say clean up these people, let’s get rid of that scum? So that’s on an individual level, and then .. how is it possible that we have a whole bunch of beautiful sports cars driving in our city, and yet we can’t figure out a way to provide basic basic shelter for people who need it.  […]

C: I know. A friend of mine once told me she saw a food bank container, and somebody had put Perrier into it, like that was a gift. Now Perrier is a nice thing to have, but you know, people eat food.

N: Yeah. And I’m all for giving food to the food bank. But I also think sometimes we middle-class people let ourselves a little to easily off the hook, because really what we need to be doing is lobbying for social change and creating different policies at a formalized codified level. Yeah, I do give up my spare change, but I hope increasingly in the various ways that I find, to apply political pressure to say this is not good enough. Let’s do this better as a government.

C: So you’re saying attuning to the needs of humanity takes you into a place of action, social action and maybe even political action.

N: Sure. What did Jesus Christ do when he came? He didn’t sit and talk in synagogues, he went out and - assuming the records are true, which of course I realize is entirely up for debate – what he did was ..he healed people. That’s what he spent most of the time doing. He wasn’t doing it to force anybody to convert, he was doing it just to say this is how God wants it done, folks. For those of you who are poor, he wants to help. For those of you who are wealthy, he says sell your riches, give to the poor. Christ spent his time living out his new belief system.
[…]
C: It’s an age-old pattern, an age-old situation that humanity has always been in. We feel we’ve progressed, we’ve got our technology, we’re talking on a webcam at a distance, but there is still human suffering.  And that’s a call to action.

N: Yes.

C: And how does the liturgy and the incense and the ritual that you were describing, how does that help to renew you?

N: It’s funny. I went with somebody to a similar service at another parish. And that had grown up – I won’t say in which denomination they had grown up , but they actually found those very things uncomfortable. I don’t want say “whatever works for you” – there has to be thoughtfulness behind it. But for me I just find those help me to center. They’re so foreign to our culture. When we go in there it’s very quiet. Well that’s foreign our culture. And it kind of gives me a sense of, “Oh yes.” The incense, again, for me that very much is a spiritual thing, a very sensual thing.  I personally don’t use it in my home, for no particular reason, frankly, but because of that it really takes me to another space. And it helps me kind of shake off and shake out of business as usual and the day to day stuff, just for a little space  - create a space that feels and looks profoundly different. It just enables me to kind of enter into bit of a state of transcendence. Not always. I’m not always able to tune out all the things that are going on in my mind. But those are aids to me, and deeply meaningful aids to help me remember greater things than “Oh now I’ve got to walk the dogs.”

C: Well this is a great conversation, and maybe be can talk again. Thanks so much for opening up sharing some of these more personal aspects of your mind and heart.

View the video.

Christian Buddhist Pagan

“I often think of God as a diamond, a huge huge diamond with many many facets. And for whatever reasons we can see the different facets, different people can see different facets.”

Isabella Mori in conversation with Carol Sill

C: Carrying on our conversation about some of your spiritual life …. I know that you’ve been involved for many years in actively pursuing a deep and sincere spiritual life. I’m wondering if you could just say a few words to us about how you got started. What awakened you first?

I: Actually, I come from a family where spirituality of one way or another was always … My grandfather was a Lutheran minister. My grandmother on my father’s side was spiritual in many ways, and now I would say strange ways. In her own way. She was a professed Lutheran but she also was – how should I say? For example, in the Second World War, right after when everybody was starving she went around and she read the cards to the people and that was how she met everybody. And she read strange books about stigmata…..just about everything. So it was always around me.

C: So it was natural for you to be aware of all the other aspects of life as well as what we see and hear in the physical world.

I: Absolutely yes. Plus my father was an artist , he was completely surrounded by artists. So all of that was really quite natural.

C: Can you tell me how this has affected you in your daily life in the past year or so? Any new ideas or ….?

I: That’s an interesting jump, to go from my roots when I was little, 2, 3 , 4, until now , with many many things that happened in between.

One thing that’s interesting that happened in the last 2 years or so is that I’ve become a little interested in my spiritual ancestry, from one part of my life. Eight years or so ago I realized I really needed to pay heed to my Christian ancestry and reconnected with that part. Shortly after I realized that to some degree certain practices that people often call pagan are important to me, and in that connection I started to look a little bit at my father’s ancestry. They spent most of their time in the Baltic triangle, so Russia, a little bit Baltics, Finland, Sweden. And to just kind of look at what the pagan influences from that area are. So that has been quite interesting. I don’t think I can talk very intelligently about it, but at the same time there’s been something very deep and stirring about that for me.

C: So the idea of coming into an understanding of your roots on a deep level helps infuse your life today.

I: Absolutely, yeah. And it excites me. One example is something that actually happened earlier, and when I realized that pagan practices would be of importance to me (which in itself is an interesting story), I was immediately drawn to the four directions. And especially the direction of the North. Of the cold and of the dark, which really surprised me because, as you know, I’ve spent some time in South America and felt really drawn to that, and felt I belonged there.

So I was surprised by how immediately drawn I was to the direction of the North. How very naturally it made me think of countries like Sweden and Norway, and some of the music that I know from there and some of the literature that I’m working with, and then afterwards I realized that I had some connection with the ancestry of the society. I read a little bit about Finnish magic, and if I have a chance to pick up something on the Norse gods and things like that…

C: And you find no separation or no conflict within yourself between believing in the spiritual life related to Christianity and any of the Norse gods?

I: No. Straight out no. I would describe my spiritual life as a mixture mostly of Christianity, Buddhism and Paganism and I see absolutely no contradiction there. Most Christians and Pagans and Buddhists – they tear their hair out when they hear that. But for me it’s really all the same. I mean, to me - I often think of God as a diamond, a huge huge diamond with many many facets. And for whatever reasons we can see the different facets, different people can see different facets.

I feel very lucky that somehow I get to see these three facets. There’re many many more, and maybe one day Allah will speak to me … I see a lot of connections with Sufism and especially Zen Buddhism. But so far Allah hasn’t spoken to me, ….

C: That’s great. Well I think that’s good for now, and we’ll end the call ….

I: Thank you very much Carol, it’s been good to talk to you.

View the video of this conversation.

Spirit and Social Action

Nancy Zimmerman goes deep into her spiritual views of Service, Action, and Social Justice from her perspective as a devoted Christian and Anglican.

” …every human being is made, is valued and  treasured by God, whether or not they believe in God, or believe in a different God, every human being is absolutely priceless. And yes we are our brother’s and sister’s  keeper, and we do need to be accountable for the fact that we are living in these neighborhoods and find ways to do what we can to come alongside people who are struggling.”

See the text version of this conversation

*Sorry for the audio lag, we had connection problems.

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Source

“It’s a huge thing to talk about because the source isn’t separate from us and we’re not separate from the source, but we feel we have to go back to it. So all of the quest stories and the tales of going to the source, or going to the source of the Ganges, finding the mountain of Siva where the source of the water flows from; all of this is a metaphor for us to go inside ourselves and make those connections.”

Conversation between Jim Van Wyck and Carol Sill

C: Let’s talk about Open Source Spirit a little more, and today we’re going to talk about the word “Source”.

J: Right, it’s interesting to think about the source in the context of spirituality but also in the context of what we’re doing here which is “Open Source” Spirit.

And of course we’re making the assumption that everyone has access to the source. In the software world, when they say “open source” that means everyone gets to look at the root code, or the secret kernel of the code; an in our model we’re assuming that every person, and especially every person who speaks with us, but every person has access to the real source of spirituality, and that it is our goal here to have people share their version of their connection with the source.

C: Yes, and having that connection with the source and being able to share it with others openly is part of our purpose. To develop that, for people, to be able to sense that for themselves as well.

J: Exactly. So if you are watching this video for the first time or if you are new to our website, I would encourage you to:

1. Look and feel and think and be open to the source of spirituality, the source of love, and life and light and laughter, and if you feel the call at all to click one of the buttons below here, to send us an email or make a comment on this blog and we’ll have a conversation with you, either in video or writing or such, and we’ll share your feeling and connection, with the source, with us.

C: That’s right. And the whole idea of being connected with the source and then finding ways to express that, I think is really important in these times.

The more that we can empower one another to do that, I think, the better off humanity will be. So, connect directly to the source as close as you can, and see what evolves as a result of that. That’s what we’re doing, right, Jim?

J: Yeah. I’d like to tell you a little story.  I was a devout little boy, I was an altar boy, I was interested in religion but it was always in my head, I never had any real connection to it.

As a young man and a teenage boy I read all kinds of books. I read books about Buddhism, and I read books about Catholicism and books about Jesus and nothing ever worked for me. I was interested in it, but I couldn’t feel like I had anything.

And one day when I was 17 years old, I was in my first year of college and I was lonely and I was far from home. I was living with some friends and I took a shower. And for some reason – and I have no idea where this came – I had this most miraculous experience of absolute joy and oneness and all these fancy words that people use to describe experience. It came out of absolutely nowhere.

I was just absolutely transported to a sense and a real, a felt sense that everything was perfect and I was connected to the whole world and I have no idea where this feeling came from. I got the idea, somewhere deep in my gut or belly or heart of somewhere, that enthusiasm was a big part of it. I got a subtle sense of guidance to go and look up what the word enthusiasm meant.

I suppose the experience happened for me for quite a long time, maybe 15 minutes or so, and at the end one of my buddies was banging on the bathroom door and wanted to get in, said I’d been in the shower a long time. I kind of snapped out of it, but I walked around in sort of a daze.

I wasn’t sure if it was a spiritual experience or if I’d had a mental breakdown or what, but it was so beautiful and so connecting and that was my first real experience with “source”. Just even talking with you about it now has made me kind of prickly and tingly and excited and happy.

C: That’s so beautiful.

J: That’s my first connection with the source, and it came out of nowhere. I hadn’t been reading, I was just working hard and going to college.

C: Yeah, well I think it’s so natural.

The whole idea of “source” connects with water, and connects with the flow of water and so it’s rather beautiful that it was in the water element that this awakening happened.

J: Do you remember a time when you had an experience like that, or some thoughts on what I did, what do you think happened there?

C: Well, I think you opened up. Basically that’s what happened, you just opened up and allowed the flow to happen.

So as the water’s flowing over you, you’re actually flowing through the water, so you opened up. So it’s not at all frightening, it’s more beautiful than anything.

J: It was not frightening, no.

C: No, it’s something to welcome. I’ll think about it next time we talk, something to talk about in my own experience. I’m a little shy about these things, I don’t like to broadcast inner things, but at the same time I think it’s important to open the conversation and let everybody know that we all have this stuff going on - all the time actually.

It makes me feel like when I’m in nature, I always feel like I want to just dive right into it. You know you see beautiful rolling green hills, I see them and I think , oh if I could just roll into them! But of course that’s a fantasy. I can’t physically roll into them in the way that I’d like – they’d probably be prickly and all of that. But the feeling is there, I feel like I want to rush through it, let it rush through me.

J: So tell me: if it’s true that source is not separate to us, I mean the very word source sounds as if that’s someplace different from where I’m at. Right? Because it starts at the source and comes to me, and yet I didn’t feel like that when I was, so many years ago in that experience. It felt like we were all in it together. Very strange sort of oneness kind of feeling that doesn’t translate into words.

What’s your take on the idea that source, well – talk about source and all is one, if you could…

C: It’s huge. It’s a huge thing to talk about because the source isn’t separate from us and we’re not separate from the source, but we feel we have to go back to it.

So all of the quest stories and the tales of going to the source, or going to the source of the Ganges, finding the mountain of Siva where the source of the water flows from; all of this is a metaphor for us to go inside ourselves and make those connections. Because it is all there, like an imprint, ready to unfold for us.

So from that point of view, it’s difficult to discuss it, which is why we have so many narratives and so many stories that help us find our way. But our way is already there if we’re here and alive in the moment.

That’s what we were talking about before, you have to be aware of the moment, open to that.

J: Um humm.

C: I mean, I don’t know what that little riff was about, I just started talking about it. I don’t know if it really makes any sense – it’s the way I think about these things.

It’s a lateral way to think about it, you can’t just go direct to the source with your rational mind. You have to approach it poetically, symbolically or humbly. You have to bow a little bit to get through that doorway so that you don’t bring too much of yourself with it. Then you can apprehend it more readily.

J: Source. For me, when I think about source in my mind, of course I always go back to these images of the sort of Catholic images of Jesus and Jesus’ Father who was never made image and of course we always had the Holy Ghost and I always wondered what he looked like. When I think of source my mind always goes toward those images. And then I think about suns and moons and stars and universe.

For me, I have no set image or experience of source other than a whole bunch of rolling huge images of nature and the world and universe that somehow start all off of my Christian and Catholic upbringing and thinking about God and Jesus and his third of the holy trilogy.

Do you see images in your mind of “source”, when you think of source, or when you try to think of source what sort of things happen in your mind, Carol?

C: Well, I think of something that is mostly uncreated. I mean the way I see it is source is something that you can’t see. Or feel. Or hear. Or touch. With everything. So all the images and everything are approximations and parodies of whatever that actually is.

So for me it’s a process of releasing from whatever it is that seems to have an identity, going towards the source that is undifferentiated and difficult to discuss with a word or with an image. Or anything. And yet we have to point to it.

So this is where the traditions are really helpful because the symbols that are used are really just to help carry your mind past some of your logical processes so that you can be ready to have a kind of a realization experience. That’s how I think about it.

It’s more of a realization, like a blip or an instant – not necessarily lasting only an instant but it’s an easier way to think about it because anything that lasts within time, right away you’re already stuck in something that you can’t make sense of, and I really think it’s way beyond our senses, and our mental senses as well.

J: Well I think Mohammed had something when he was transcribing the Koran from what he perceived to be the spoken word of God, which is they don’t want to make images of God and or even of man, because they’re afraid that those images just by their very nature, will limit people’s connection with the Divine.

My understanding is that Mohammed kind of has a good idea there to try and limit us from making statues of God or statues of holy figures, because it can so easily slip from there into idolizing the image rather than the content behind. I always thought that was interesting.

C: It’s true, but inside ourselves we have to create an image. We make an image inside ourselves. And what we know is that image transforms. As we mature, more is revealed of what this image is.

And so a loving mother, and a kind father and all that kind of imagery comes through us, but at the same time we also imagine or identify god-like beings or devas, spirits or any of these. As we go in our journey toward the source we experience all kinds of elementals and thought-memes and you name it, it’s all there in the mind world, in the heart world, in the angelic realms. They’re all there.

And we articulate them as we go forward but we don’t stay with them. We don’t stay. We don’t sleep with the faeries and end up waking up 75 years later, we keep on going, right? So that’s the thing: when you enter the forest, and you go through the forest pathways, you meet all the creatures but you have a destination, right?

J: Dear viewer, I would like you to put a comment down below and tell us what you think about your version of the source. And I think that’s all I have to say for this episode of Open Source Spirit. How’d you like to make the final comment, Carol?

C: Okay. I’d just like to say thanks for sticking with us throughout the length of this little video and be in touch with us. We’d love to talk with you too.

View the video of this conversation.

Invocation

This little introduction video includes many of the sacred words, themes, and memes we’ll be exploring in this Open Source Spirit project. Thanks to wordle!
Explore a little more. Click something interesting to you!